Techno Babble II

well, we could make it "optional" and go nuts with jquery all over the place, or we could find a middle ground and make them default.I guess i d go with keeping it as is, and making all the jquery stuff optional; in case, there are any other paranoid blokes out there that feels they are enforced to have js enabled.better than trying to decide which are definitely necessary and which are not.

As far as those functionalities goes, they are very likely to make the back office less scary, and more easy to use.Basically, tabs that you can close/expand, admin blocks that can be toggled in order to save you some place, resizable writing area could make the life easier.On the other hand, i dont think we should use of much jquery by default in front end, the user should choose which skin he likes judging by those "functionalities" as well as the looks.

I've seen one WP skin that was completely built with javaScript. Though it looked nice and had some cunning features, overall it felt sluggish and unresponsive.
If you build a skin using some jQuery it wouldn't be slow with todays browsers and hardware. The possibilities you create are endless and never dreamt about in the B2evo community. Ajax could provide all sorts of real time action. All sorts of rubbish could be removed (at least from view). The visitor, not the blogger, could hsve a say in the way he wants to view the content.
B2evolution skipped the Web2.0 revolution altogether. Most often it was the 'non obtrusive' argument and sometimes those in charge ignored the fact that over 95% of all browsers have javaScript enabled.
¥åßßå, it's 2010 and you're spreading the same ideas using exactly the same arguments and terminology the day we first talked about this. In the years that passed I have shown with many jQuery based plugins that all sorts of effects are possible, all fast, beautiful to look at and unobtrusive. The one thing we never did was build that skin together that relied on javaScript and would shock the community being not just a small step but a giant leap into the future.

What have I been smoking?

Tilqi :
optional is "disable js" ;)
one of the end goals is to make admin work far better, but the modules would be usable by anything that called them.

Afwas :
I've zero problem with javascript being used for functionality but it should *always* be an enhancement to the "click > wait > click". Or a feature improvement like the smilies toolbar, if you have js enabled you get to click on cute lil images. If you have it disabled then you can still type them in manually.

Once QP has a template that we're happy to call "a starting point" I'm more than happy for us to start playing ajax/jquery games with it and seeing if we can make the world gasp in awe ;)

¥

"95% of all browsers have javaScript enabled."
"optional is "disable js" ;)" - yabs

cool, seems we could compromise on the matter that having js disabled is a paranoid(irregular) action unlike the rest of the crowd.

so, i believe the way to go is to determine the priorities and have as much jquery as needed.

95% of browsers have the *ability* to run javascript ;)

The majority of users without js aren't paranoid, it's a lack of capability in their browser.

Javascript should never be "needed" it should only make things better or easier, but, the topic is "how can we make the javascript side of the equation easier?" not "should we use javascript" ;)

¥

i thought we were over this, we had this discussion a couple of times, and i ve said that i also agree that js should not be mandatory to access any web page properly, allthough i see of no reason to have it disabled as default, and enable at certain situation, it has gotta be the other way around.
and no not the 95% of the browsers have the *ability* to run javascript, i suppose 99.9% of them support, and 95% of the users have js enabled.Though this information may not be *totally* accurate; the more or less, it's a huge number to prove that you are being paranoid.If js were to be harmful and able rape people online i guess we would know already by the 95% of the internet users.

Conclusion, I never gave a shit before about people those have js disabled, i always assumed their number were too small to worry about, but, even if that is 5 percent, that is a considerable amount of people to have concerns about given the number of internet users.

Yes, we should always make sure everything runs smoothly without js, and you gotta accept you are a minority :p

Ok, can we pretend that we're beyond the whole off topic debate of number of users with and without js enabled and actually try and answer the question that I first posted?

anyway, on the grounds that some things require js just to function ( quicktags, smilies, any other button that adds shit when you click it ), would it be worth creating some standard javascript modules that made life easier, and should we use jquery

¥

OK, shortly;

it definitely would.

we gotta find out which are "essential".Tidying the BO is one of them i believe, [s](as afaik admin area requires js enabled already it wont be much of a problem, we just need to decide on the amount of to be used modules/improvements)[/s] whereas i dont think [i]any[i] kind of functionality should be imposed on the front end.

I question the validity of "95% have js enabled". BROWSERS might have it but how do you know the actual human has kept it for untrusted sites? To me that sounds exactly like webmasters in the 90s who said they didn't need to worry about their pages in other browsers because 95% of their traffic used IE.

My opinion is if the site fails without js then the site fails.

But to focus on your question, are you talking public side or admin side? quicktags needs no js on the public side. Smilies do for some silly reason, but they degrade gracefully so no problem. The navbar needs js but you've got to be logged in to need it so if you still don't trust a site you're registered at you've got problems. A toolbar for commenters MIGHT need js, but hey that's what the noscript tag is for. Therefore I think it would not be worthwhile unless it's easy to do.

Oh and those who slate you, which is a neat way to express the thought, only do so because you're violating their religion. They believe js is god almighty and are therefore not open to hearing anything different.

We need js like we need oregano. Nice, but I'm pretty sure you won't die without it.

never mind. I just deleted everything. It failed again, I'm done with it.